On the role of HTS and its relations with the US and Türkiye.
On the role of HTS and its relations with the US and Türkiye.
Ali Erdem Köz from Türkiye’s daily Aydınlık daily newspaper conducted a very comprehensive interview with a former Syrian National Army (SNA) commander in Syria. The interview provides many insights on highly controversial topics of rapidly evolving developments in Syria.
We present the full interview translating into English.
The Syrian National Army (SNA) was established by Türkiye in 2017 through the reorganization of former Free Syrian Army (FSA) groups. These opposition forces, reshaped into a structured military entity, played a key role in countering the PKK/YPG. We met with a former SNA commander in Syria who had been among pioneers during the SNA’s formation, trained units in Turkmen Mountain for years and participated in counter-terrorism operations. In this face-to-face interview, we asked about his expectations for the new era and received some eye-opening answers.
Groups severed from the US
The FSA was at the forefront of Türkiye’s operations in northern Syria. Then it was renamed as the Syrian National Army (SNA) in 2017. Who are they exactly?
As known, the FSA was formed by Türkiye with the US under the framework of “Train and Equip Program”, aimed at channeling the public uprisings emerged from Syria’s “Arab Spring”. After the Operation Euphrates Shield, Türkiye wanted to deploy the groups it had included in the operations under its own initiative. That is to say Türkiye severed those groups from the US. So, the Syrian National Army was organized, structured and shaped by Türkiye. Türkiye needed that both a leading force in its cross-border operations and as a proxy power on the ground. The results were indeed successful. The SNA is a formation directly shaped by Türkiye without the involvement of any external actors. In operations in Syria, such a structure was essential both to minimize casualties and to use as a diplomatic tool at the negotiating table.
What is the composition of the SNA? Is it primarily made up of Syrian Arab militias?
Yes, the SNA mainly comprises Arab personnel. We can say that 90% of its organization are Arabs. The remaining 10% is mostly Kurdish, with only a small portion of Turkish. Turkmens are in leadership positions. Now, this is actually one of the major problems. Organizations where the base is predominantly Arab, but the leadership belongs to a different ethnic group are always prone to internal friction. Such is the case indeed within the SNA.
If these groups had been formed primarily from Turkmen rather than being 90% Arab, we wouldn’t have seen incidents like the “flag burning” (referring to the event where some SNA groups burned flags following incidents in the city of Kayseri in Türkiye). There are fractions opponent to Türkiye in the SNA. If these factions are not properly managed, they will always harm Türkiye. Türkiye has been unsuccessful from time to time in this regard.
What kind of structure does HTS have? How do you view HTS?
HTS is a combination of several groups that evolved over time: first Al-Qaeda, then ISIS, later Al-Nusra and finally HTS. It includes representatives of both the global jihadist tradition and the regional jihadist tradition. HTS is a terrorist organization. According to the laws of the Republic of Türkiye too, it is a terrorist organization. And Julani is the leader of a terrorist organization.
Türkiye had no influence over HTS
How do HTS militants acquire their equipment and logistical support?
When ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi aimed to create a foothold during the uprisings in Syria, he sent Julani to the region. These are well-documented and proven facts, supported by their own statements. At that time, they operated on the ground with weapons and equipment provided by the US and the UK. We also know that Julani never severed his ties with the British intelligence. We know his connections with the White Helmets too, an organization established by British intelligence. With funding from Gulf countries, HTS established a presence in Idlib, and in particular has been sustained by Qatar’s financial support.
Let’s emphasize this: no terrorist organization in this region can survive without Western backing. We see its effects now. There is a PR campaign for HTS. The West will determine what form HTS takes in the coming period. Türkiye doesn’t have such a decisive influence on HTS.
Damascus was handed over to HTS
How do you interpret the process that began with HTS’s Aleppo offensive and culminated in the overthrow of the government in Damascus? Was this process planned by HTS?
Damascus was handed over to HTS. To suddenly reach Damascus within 12 days during a decade-long civil war where no progress had been made, is not a revolutionary movement but rather a handover.
Who handed over Damascus?
From a contextual perspective, consider the heavy losses Russia suffered during the Ukraine War. And significant casualties Iran’s paramilitary groups due to Israeli attacks in Lebanon and Syria. These consecutive developments created a power vacuum in Syria, ultimately leading to Assad’s complete capitulation. Let me also state this: Assad’s fall was impossible without Iran and Russia withdrawing from the field.
The West started seeking a “hero” for the “Syrian revolution”. This hero, I emphasize, was supposed not to be under Türkiye’s control. This hero was supposed to be a threat to Türkiye and have the potential to align with Western policies in the region in the long term. Simply put, this hero was meant to be Julani.
Ibrahim Kalın’s visit to Julani
Contrary to what you said, National Intelligence Organization (MİT) Chief İbrahim Kalın in his recent Syria visit let Julani take the wheel of his car. How could Julani be an enemy or a threat to Türkiye?
There’s nothing unusual about the MİT Chief meeting with Julani. That’s all normal. However, letting someone you recognize as a terrorist leader drive your car and then releasing those images to the public, that was intentional. That’s the thing to criticize.
People are asking, “What message did Türkiye send with that?” That’s not the right question. The question should be, “What message did Julani send?” Let me tell you the message: “I’m in the driver’s seat, and Türkiye is the passenger seat”. But Julani is not capable of sending this message on his own. This event was orchestrated by British intelligence. I say this based on my field experience and knowledge. We know who’s who in the field, how they’re supported and for what purpose they’re there.
Julani has now become Ahmed al-Sharaa. A new persona for a leader with roots in al-Qaeda, al-Nusra, ISIS. HTS is now being fashioned into a “role model” for the “Syrian freedom movement”.
Let me share something interesting: whether HTS and Julani succeed or fail in the “Syrian revolution”, it will harm Türkiye. If they succeed, Türkiye cannot coexist along its borders with a takfiri, jihadist entity. Türkiye’s internal dynamics can’t bear that. If they fail, it means new chaos and another wave of migration. This is the perspective we need to take. Including HTS in the political equation in Syria is a move against Türkiye.
Not under Türkiye’s control
Did the SNA participate in the attack on Aleppo?
The period when the FSA became the SNA is what we consider the time of full Turkish support. So, if this was the era of full Turkish support, how did units from the SNA end up joining HTS? Türkiye intervened in developments that occurred independently of itself, attempting to play a role. Türkiye sent SNA groups to some areas alongside HTS. This was entirely an effort to steal the spotlight.
Was it the SNA groups that raised the Turkish flag on the Aleppo Citadel?
Raising a flag is not a definitive thing. I could go to Aleppo and raise a British, American or Russian flag. Five minutes later, you could take it down. The presence of a flag does not mean Türkiye has control. Türkiye was trying to steal the spotlight.
To quote the Syrian opposition groups: “The ‘Free Syria Revolution’ was carried out by HTS”. However, Ankara and the media in Türkiye created the perception like it was Türkiye’s doing. Speaking as someone familiar with the field, I can say clearly that a development occurred outside Türkiye’s control! And now, events are unfolding in a way that Türkiye does not control. Because HTS is not an organization under Türkiye’s control. In fact, it has occasionally confronted Türkiye and even pointed weapons at Turkish soldiers.
SNA and HTS
Within the SNA, there are also groups and leaders who sympathize with HTS. Ideologically, HTS follows a takfiri doctrine and some SNA militias are drawn to this. HTS has also exploited every signal Ankara has sent about reconciling with Assad and used it to criticize Türkiye within SNA groups. While these factions didn’t immediately leave the SNA, they have gone through ideological rifts with Türkiye. HTS, with CIA-driven strategies, analyzed and leveraged this process undermining Türkiye.
In fact, there have been splits within SNA. This will continue. Ultimately, SNA will either dissolve into HTS or be eliminated from Syria altogether. HTS has a history of assassinating those who don’t align with its views. This has happened before, and it will happen again. Many SNA commanders will be forced to seek refuge in Türkiye. We will see this.
The US’s gift to HTS
Do you know which unit first entered Damascus?
The first units were those from the Al-Tanf region. There is a US base in Al-Tanf, where FSA forces were trained and equipped under American control. This is a structure different from the FSA we know and has no connection with the Türkiye-controlled SNA. Those who entered Damascus and led the uprisings and clashes while moving through Hama and Homs, were forces trained and supported by the US-controlled FSA.
You said that HTS didn’t enter first Damascus? How then HTS took the reins? Did the US do that?
Yes, the US gifted Damascus to HTS. The so-called “Syrian revolution” was handed over to HTS. Whoever the US wants as a leader, they prepare the groundwork for that one, and in Syria Julani became the owner of the revolution effortlessly.
Are US-backed FSA forces still in Damascus? Were there any SNA units among the forces that entered Damascus?
No, SNA didn’t enter Damascus. FSA forces are still in Damascus and are playing an active role.
Various factions within HTS
Who are the groups within HTS?
The core of HTS is made up of Syrians. There are the “pledged” groups. These are non-state armed actors such as Turkistani groups, Chechen groups and groups from the Balkans. These groups are homogeneous but have pledged allegiance to HTS and cannot act independently from it.
After the attacks on Aleppo began, a photo was shared showing a commander from the Turkistan Islamic Party managing operations at an HTS headquarters. This suggests these groups are influential enough to take on leadership partially. How do you interpret this?
That might be correct. They can manage operations. The military capabilities and skills of the Turkistani groups are highly advanced. They are not to be underestimated. They are very strong and better trained than many European armies.
Will these groups have a say in the newly established government?
Legally and politically, these groups cannot be part of the government, nor would they demand such a thing. These groups see the battlefield as an opportunity to develop their own interpretation of “jihad.” They were in Afghanistan, then came to Syria and we might see them in Chechnya next. One group went to Ukraine. The Turkistani didn’t but some Chechen groups went to Ukraine. There are groups like the “Ichkerian Mujahideen” originating from figures such as Shamil Basayev, Dzhokhar Dudayev and Aslan Maskhadov. These Chechen groups involved in Chechnya’s war against Russia and later came to Syria.
There was once a figure named Muslim al-Shishani, who clashed with HTS. HTS didn’t allow Shishani to stay in the Turkmen Mountain area and forced him to leave. Another example is Abdulhakim Shishani from the same school of thought. They went to Ukraine as well, but their numbers are not much as claimed.
Operationally, they are not at a strategic or operational level. They operate more as reconnaissance units, ambush squads, or sabotage teams carrying out irregular warfare activities in rear areas. Ambushes, infiltrations and sabotage of critical facilities, etc.
Motivation from radicalism
Who trained HTS?
HTS received training primarily from leaders of the non-state armed groups. Secondly, from military personnel who had participated in wars with Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and with ISIS in Iraq. Some trainers are ones who had previously served in law enforcement agencies.
You wouldn’t directly see any CIA, MI6 or Mossad operatives there. They engage indirectly. They identify capable individuals, provide them with specialized training according to their skills and then deploy them back to the field. These trained ones then train others.
But the training HTS received isn’t as good as portrayed. It’s basic military training. However, what made HTS an effective and formidable force during the Aleppo offensive was the motivation of its militants in the field. Opposing “taghut system”is their cause. Their stance on non-Muslims is known. HTS draws its strength and motivation from its radicalism.
Who killed the Russian pilot
What is the relationship between HTS and Türkiye?
Türkiye shot down the Russian plane. The pilot ejected from the plane. A shot was fired from the ground and killed the pilot. Speaking as someone who witnessed this incident, I can confirm that HTS did not shoot down the plane. Türkiye did. However, the pilot was not killed by Türkiye. There was propaganda saying that the Turkmens killed him. This is not true. The group that killed the pilot was affiliated with HTS, which was named as Al-Nusra at the time. In fact, the pilot’s body was also retrieved from Al-Nusra. So, CIA’s tool carried out their roles.
Relationship between Türkiye and HTS does not rest on solid foundations. HTS thinks that Türkiye needs them. Their mindset is, “Türkiye can’t freely carry out its policies here without us”.
Who attacked the Turkish soldiers and why?
How do we know this? When Turkish forces entered Idlib, a Turkish soldier was martyred by a sniper shot. It wasn’t a direct clash. That shot was deliberate, carried out from a distance. The group behind this wasn’t directly affiliated with HTS. Later, similar incidents occurred: in the Turkmen Mountain region, Turkish Special Forces personnel were fired upon by other groups. And explosion targeted at a Turkish military convoy in Jisr al-Shughur. Again, other groups claimed responsibility.
Who are these groups, and why did they attack Turkish forces? As mentioned earlier, HTS is an organization based on allegiance. At the time, there were factions in Turkmen Mountain that weren’t directly part of HTS but had pledged allegiance to it. Through these factions, HTS sent Türkiye a message: “This region is mine. If you enter without my permission, you will be in danger. Coordinate with me and I’ll protect you”. I state all this as someone with first-hand knowledge of the field. We witnessed and understood this dynamic.
Within HTS-controlled areas, no one can act independently or without their knowledge. Of course, this is not HTS’ intelligence at play, rather that of the CIA and MI6. No terrorist organization, including HTS or PKK, can ever challenge the Republic of Türkiye on its own.
“HTS and PKK cannot clash”
So-called leaders of the PKK say, “We are ready for dialogue with HTS”. Mazlum Abdi clearly stated, “The east of the Euphrates is ours and the west is HTS’s”. How do you assess the relationship between HTS and the PKK?
Look, we will see in the coming days that while HTS is at the negotiating table with the PKK, the SNA won’t be able to take action against the PKK. Because right now HTS is the “leader” of this “revolution”. HTS will be the one to decide who will fill the power vacuum that has emerged across Syria.
We will also see that HTS will say, “I made an agreement with the PKK. You are all subordinate to me. Whatever I say goes. If you don’t follow my orders, I will eliminate you”. It’s that simple. HTS and PKK cannot clash. They will not clash. We will see this.